new member / need help with tweaking reception

[ammo-master]

Greetings, I have installed the MS-2002 with it's 18 volt power injector approximately 12 feet off the ground at my residence which is Antler Lane, New Oxford, PA 17350.

Am now receiving 23 clean channels, 5 or 6 of which are redundant because they are broadcasting in both DTV and HDDTV. Some of the channels seem to drop off during the day, either they are gone completely, or so badly degraded they are not usable HOWEVER that is not what most concerns me.

We do not receive any CBS channels that broadcast the prime time TV shows.

I do not want to change antennas but am open to the possibility of adding a second antenna if it can bring in CBS, or even if it could not bring in the CBS we are looking for but adds a few more channels to the 22-23 we currently receive.

I mounted the MS-2002 on a section of 1.25" PVC pipe that I added to extend the length of the J-Mount left by The Dish Network. There is also a second line of coax cable that Dish used in their installation that is available for use and could be used to bring a second antenna's signal down into my basement.

Questions:

Does Winegard have a small directional add-on antenna that I could purchase and install on the 1.25" PVC mast just below the MS-2002 that could be pointed to a tower transmitting the CBS we need? This antenna would have to be relatively inexpensive, small and unobtrusive. It would have to be permanently mounted and not a rotator. I would also need to know what direction to mount it pointing toward and how to integrate it's signal with that of the MS-2002. Should I make use of the second available cable to bring the signal inside and then combine using another piece of equipment, or do I simply combine them up outside on the mast using a simple 2-way splitter like a 5-1000MHz with one IN and two -3.5dB OUT's?
Also, I see much talk on this site about amplifiers. Assuming the 18 volt "injector" Part No. 2780235 is NOT an amplifier, is there a Winegard product available that specifically targets the reception enhancements I am looking for?

Thanks!

[winegard]

Good morning ammo-master,

The MS-2002 antenna should receive CBS channel 21 from Harrisburg if installed higher. You are only 30-32 miles from the Harrisburg TV channels so if your MS-2002 is raised to a height of 30 -35 feet you should have much better results. However the satellite pipe and foot with your 11/4’’ PVC pipe will not support this kind of installation so you will need to find a different mounting system in order to raise your antenna up to 30-35 feet in height. You might look at a SW-0010 tripod with a couple of TB-0005 5 foot masts on top of your roof if that will work. Trying to add a small UHF only antenna to try and receive channel 21 would require the use of an HD-4400 4 bay antenna but once again this antenna will most likely need to be at least 30-35 high in order for you to have good results.


You are correct if you wish to combine the MS-2002 downlead cable and the HD-4400 antenna downlead cable you will use a 2 way splitter in reverse after the power supply of the MS-2002 to combine the MS-2002 signal and the separate downlead cable from the HD-4400. By doing this you will reduce each antenna’s signals by 3.5dB (30%) on all channels. The power supply of the MS-2002 sends 18VAC up the coax cable to an amplifier built into the MS-2002 which has an average gain of +15dB on VHF and +18dB gain on UHF. So adding additional amplifier or using different amplifiers will not help until we raise the antenna to a height where we can receive a good strong signal. Amplifiers can not pull in signal that does not exist or extend the receiving range of antenna.

[ammo-master]

Thank you very much for both the timely response as well as the education.

Since I live in a cape cod I think I will take your advice. My original plan was to locate the mast on the south side of the house using a fabricated mount which would have placed the MS-2002 at least 25 feet off the ground, however since you recommend 30-35 feet, I will have to fabricate a much heavier mounting system.

Perhaps I will continue to make use of the Dish J-mount, just locate it high on the roof and fab up a pair of extra mounting points creating a tripod (or quad-pod) for it, as it seems like it's a fairly heavy duty piece that I'd rather not trash it if possible. One cool thing about it is all you need to do is remove one nut and bolt, loosen another, and the whole sha-bang swings down to a reachable level (with no ladder needed) for maintenance, etc.

The only concern is I visited a web site that enables you to enter parameters such as your location, your antenna model, and your mounting height, etc,... and it tells you what to expect as far as number of channels received. After the initial installation and check out of the MS-2002 I went back to the web site and entered 30 feet and also 40 feet as the antenna height, but it did not seem to make a whole lot of difference than when I entered 12 feet, which is about where it stands now...

Since your saying Harrisburg is about 30-32 miles, I would also like to point out that we are currently receiving WBFF-45 and WMAR-2, both of which I believe are transmitting out of Baltimore, (from the so-called "Candelabra Tower" as we use to call it when we lived in Maryland). Since I know for a fact that we are located 20 miles north of Westminster Maryland, I would think we are at least 40-45 miles from the Candelabra Tower in Baltimore, therefore why don't we pick up Harrisburg now with the MS-2002 at 12 feet high?

The only reason that I can think of is perhaps the "Candelabra Tower" is much taller then the Harrisburg tower and perhaps it also transmits at much higher power levels then Harrisburg does as well? After all, the advertised range of the MS-2002 is 40-45 miles MAX correct, so I would imagine the fact that we are receiving several Baltimore stations/channels is already pushing the limits of the MS-2002.

If your saying forget about what that web site predicts, but the general rule for any Omni-Directional antenna is "THE HIGHER, THE BETTER NO MATTER WHAT!", well then screw the neighbors I'm going 40 feet!!! LOL!

One more thing. AM radio reception really sucks for in the home. Even in the car it is affected by anything and everything, especially overhead power lines. How could I make use of that second line I mentioned earlier for AM and FM home reception? What do you recommend?

Thanks.

AMMO-MASTER

[winegard]

I would suggest that you raise your antenna because height is going to be our best hope to receive the CBS channel. As for your AM/FM question I do not know of any manufacturer that has an AM outdoor antenna. Winegard does have 3 FM only antennas. The HD-6010 is an omni directional FM antenna, The HD-6000 is a 4 element directional FM antenna, and the HD-6055 is an 8 element directional FM antenna. Once again the higher the antenna the better and the larger the antenna the stronger FM signals you will receive. I suggest that which ever antenna you select that you run the FM cable directly to your FM tuner and no try and couple it together with you TV signal.



For your AM antenna you might do a Google search on building an AM antenna and see if can find an AM antenna plan you might be interested in building. I have no idea how good any of these do it your self antennas perform since I have never built one my self.

[ammo-master]

What mounting system comes with the HD-6010? I would like to mount it on the same 1.25" diameter mast that I have the MS-2002 on but place it a few feet below my MS-2002, do I need anything else other then what comes packaged with the HD-6010 in order to position it in that manner? (the pictures I have seen of the 6010 do not clearly depict the mounting system that comes with it...)

Also, does the HD-6010 come with a 75ohm coaxial output so I could connect regular #6 coaxial cable to it? And lastly, how far below must the HD-6010 be mounted from the MS-2002 so as to make sure it does not effect or degrade the performance of the MS-2002? Thanks.

[winegard]

The HD-6010 comes only with the mounting arm and 2’’ U bolt assembly used to attach the antenna to a mast pipe up to 2’’ O.D. The antenna comes supplied with a TV-2900 300 ohm to 75 ohm matching transformer that your RG6/U cable attaches to. The MS-2002 antenna and the HD-6010 antenna should separated by at least 72” to prevent interaction between the antennas.

[ammo-master]

The MS-2002 has been re-located on a new mast which has the disc positioned approximately 27-28 feet above ground.
Before I had it approximately 10 feet above ground.
After scan-tune I have a net loss of around 9 channels.

We were receiving 22-23 strong signals with the MS-2002 ten feet above ground.
We now receive 12-13 channels, (many weak), with the MS-2002 mounted 28 feet above ground.

BIG BUMMER!!!

Hans;... you told me on the phone a few minutes ago that the MS-2002 will not pick up any signal which is under 15.8 NM(db), or -72 or less PWR(dBm).
If I were to apply those numbers to the tv.fool.com print out I would only be able to receive 7 channels along with their side bands.
We were receiving 22-23 channels before we changed the MS-2002 height from 9 feet to 27 feet so now I am really confused...

[ammo-master]

Have since raised the height of the MS-2002 to 27 feet, as well as rotated the disk in 5 minute increments attempting to find the units "sweet spot".

So far the results are that we were finally able to pull in CBS from Harrisburg, however the signal quality is not up to entertainment grade, way too much pixelation along with the associated audio breakup as well.
We also lost a couple channels in the deal...

After a fresh scan of channels I did 3PM today, it still locks on to 23 channels total, (same amount of channels we received with the antenna mounted just 9 feet off the ground) however many of the channels signal quality sucks badly.

I am very disappointed as we watch (or at least we use to watch when we had Dish-Network) both NCIS TV shows that come out over CBS channel 21.1 and unfortunately CBS to my knowledge does not make full length epasodes of those two series available to view on-line, so what other things can I do to possibly improve / boost 21.1?

We are using the 18 volt power injector that came with the unit. I have a spare. Can 2 be used or will that blow up the MS-2002? How about a higher voltage power injector, like say 20 or 24 volts? What if I were to try to increase the overall height of the home-made mast I constructed (using 1.25" galvanized conduit) by 2 to 4 feet? Would that do anything?

21.1 comes in but it's overall quality makes it too irritating to watch, especially given being spoiled by a decade of paying out around $85 a month for 8 years of Com-cast, followed by 2 more years of Dish... The only way I will ever go back to PAID TV is if I won the lottery so that won't happen because we do not gamble..

The floor is open for suggestions. Thanks for all the help so far!

[winegard]

The MS-2000 built in amplifier has a regulator built into it that regulates the incoming DC power voltage to +12VDC internally so send a higher DC voltage up to the antenna will not do any thing to the performance of the antenna as far as getting a better signal strength. Once again what we have to do is to try and find the signal level where we have a strong enough signal level on channel 21.1 by moving the antenna around or higher etc. About the only other option is to go to a larger antenna than the MS-2000 to see if we can receive a stronger signal on channel 21.1. The antenna we would suggest if you wish try a larger antenna for the Harrisburg area is the HD-8800 antenna and possibly an AP-4700 preamplifier. You would combine the MS-2000 antenna’s signal and the HD-8800 antenna’s signals after each power supply using a CC-7870 coupler giving a single cable going to your TV set(s).

[ammo-master]

I have ordered a brand new HD-8800 and will also be buying a CC-7870 combiner and have some more questions that deal with mounting, spacing and the powering of the componnents.

1. What mounting hardware comes with the HD-8800 and will it allow me to place it on my 1.25" diameter mast directly below my MS-2002?

2. Is that going to be the best location for it on the mast?

3. If so, mounting the HD-8800 how far below the MS-2002 are we talking?

4. Is the HD-8800 powered like the MS-2002 is?

5. I understand that joining two antennas can be a great alternative to a rotator but isn't it recommended that identical antennas be used for best results? If so, then why did you recommend the HD-8800?

6. Also, if I run 2 different antennas (as I am planning to do), do I need to make sure I run equal lengths of coax cable from each antenna to the CC-7870 to eliminate multi-path and out of phase signals?

7. Is the CC-7870 a transformer-type antenna coupler that comes with it's own "power injector" which would replace one of the other power injectors?

8. I realize the CC-7870 provides isolation between the 2 different style antennas, thus limiting the combining loss and possible antenna loading to no greater than -3.5 dB to the output signal level,... so where does the AP-4700 preamplifier fit into the mix?

9. Is the CC-7870 a 360 degree omni-directional unit, or should I point it toward Harrisburg? How do I know which side (or edge) of the CC-7870 is the side to point toward Harrisburg?

10. Should I combine the units by placing the CC-7870 at the mast as close to the 2 antennas as possible
(leaving the CC-7870 exposed to the elements), or place it in the basement where all the coax cables enter the home and also where the current MS-2002's power injector and other splitters are located, (indoors), where it would be protected from rain, snow, wind, etc.?